Licensing platforms: is there no alternative? (Yes, there is.)

An interview with alternative licensing platform Armadillo's founder, Michele Rosenthal

Dear On Lookers,

Apologies for the absence, I’ve been writing my thesis like a madman, which has left me little desire to write more in my free time. But today I’m back with a really exciting interview!

In their own words, Armadillo is a licensing platform “for working artists to showcase their licensable works, and a place for art buyers to discover the best in premium stock illustration. Unlike existing stock websites, our goal is to provide the resources and education to facilitate one-on-one negotiation between artists and buyers. We won’t allow AI, and we won’t take a cut.”

Since we can count these kinds of bottom-up, artist-led projects on one hand in the illustration community, I was curious to learn more from the source. I sat down with Michele Rosenthal, the illustrator who initiated the project. We discuss the economy and ecology of stock image platforms, their relationship with AI, the role of organizing for freelance artists, and how to contribute to Armadillo’s current Kickstarter campaign. Armadillo is an experiment in thinking about other ways of doing things by de-centering profit.

This interview will be interesting for illustrators but also for anyone who has ever looked at a stock image (i.e., everyone) and wants to understand the underlying economy these platforms operate within.

What follows is an edited transcript of our conversation. Also, as an experiment and mostly for accessibility reasons, you can listen to the audio version. I’m not and likely never will be a podcaster, so apologies for the poor sound quality on my end. Thankfully, I don’t speak much.

Click below to listen to the interview!

INTRODUCING ARMADILLO

Julien: All right Michele, can you tell me and us, the audience “us”, who are you?

Michele: My name's Michele. I've been working as a freelance illustrator, designer, and educator since 2010. And as we were just talking about, illustration is a lot of times a jumping-off point to other projects that I end up getting into.

Some of those projects in the past I had a blog where I was reviewing Criterion Films. I built a website where I researched queer historical figures. So, I've always had these kinds of side projects that I'm working on that are illustration related. But I mostly focus on colorful vector illustrations. I worked a lot with tech companies, a bit in publishing, nonprofit, healthcare, all over the place. But it's given me the chance to see a lot of different corners of the industry.

Julien: I remember we met through late Twitter, at the peak of the whole Corporate Memphis “moral panic”.

Michele: Yeah, I got a little reputation for my defense of Corporate Memphis, which is something I still care about, something I still think a lot about. But yeah, that, a lot of people found me through that because it's always been an art style that I felt, connected to, related to, and it was an art style that I feel like I was excited about and watched develop before it became so saturated across our landscape. But it also just really, it's very much my point of view that there is no high art, low art, it's all just art, and thinking about it in those terms.

Julien: And this is why I wasn't surprised when I saw you coming up with Armadillo and this whole new project, because to me it was such a natural continuation of the kind of work that you were already doing online of thinking critically, not only about the aesthetic side of the industry and illustration but also the material conditions of how is this a job and how can this become more of a job.

Michele: Yeah. I’m always thinking about the economics of art. And I think that's also very much my perspective, that high art, low art, these ideas we have about different categories of art. They all exist within an economic and a historical context. And so, I'm always interested in thinking through the material conditions of art, not just elevating art above our material conditions, but situating them within our material conditions.

And you're right, Armadillo is absolutely an extension of that. It started from thinking about how the industry is functioning, seeing the changes happening and just coming up with an idea one day, ‘I think we can do something about this!’

Julien: Can you walk us through the step-by-step process of how Armadillo works, from the moment someone is interested in an illustration to the final outcome?

Michele: Yeah, absolutely. It's going to start with artists uploading work that's available for licensing. Clients will be able to search through that artwork. We are getting ready to launch our basic functional site soon, and then we're hoping to build out all the planned features over the course of about a year. So, clients will be able to search the artwork and then. We want to set up a contact form that encourages the client to give some basic information about budget, deadline… all these things that no one likes to talk about. From there, everything moves off the website. So, someone described us as a dating site once; we just want to make the connections, and then the rest of it is up to you. So the negotiation, the exchange of money and artwork, all happen off the website.

Julien: How, and around what time, did the project come about of creating this licensing platform?

Michele: It started in early 2023, because that's when stock websites became early adopters of generative AI. The inciting incident is that I had some artwork on Shutterstock, and they sent me an email saying, "Good news. We fed your artwork to an AI dataset, and we'll pay you a few pennies if we use your data. No, you can't opt out because of the contract you signed with us a decade ago."

And it wasn't just a realization that they were adopting AI; it was a bigger realization that these companies, which in the past understood that they relied on their relationships with the artists in their roster, seemed to be no longer interested in maintaining those relationships. So I saw it not just as adopting a new technology, but as a real breakdown of the agreement that had kept these websites in business, which is that artists would put their work on their sites because these websites would respect that artwork and respect those artists.

I was feeling very salty about this and had this realization that we can build our own licensing website. We can build it from an illustrator's point of view, build the website that would help artists and that there would be enough interest in the community to make that happen. And so far, that has been the case and I’m very grateful for that.

ON THE ECONOMY AND ECOLOGY OF LICENSING

Julien: Can you explain what a licensing platform is and what kind of role it plays in the ecology and the economy of illustration?

Michele: Absolutely. For illustrators, there are two ways to earn income. One is through original commissions and assignments, and the other is by licensing existing work. When you're creating original illustrations, you're also licensing those illustrations at the same time. So, you're saying, I will make an illustration for you and give you permission to use it. But illustrators can also make passive income by licensing the work they have already created to people who want to use it. So, a lot of this industry is dominated by these stock image websites, where if you want an illustration that already exists, you don't want to hire an illustrator to create something new, you can go to a website like Shutterstock and find whatever you need.

What we want to do with Armadillo is make a platform for what this ecosystem used to look like before the stock image websites. So the other way of licensing artwork is to contact the artist directly and negotiate terms with them, and make sure that you're both on the same page. What we're building is something where we're asking people to contact the artist directly, so the artist has more control over how their art is used, what terms they want to set for it, what price they want to ask for it. We're comparing ourselves to websites like Shutterstock, but we're a totally different model because we're not taking a cut on transactions.

The goal is to be the infrastructure that lets people find artists to contact directly so they don't have to necessarily go through the middleman like Shutterstock.

Julien: And I think now, especially with AI, people are starting to realize this pile of work that they’re sitting on has a lot of value under the right conditions. And AI companies know it because it's data, but I think to illustrators and to clients, it's not always clear that this is an option, and that there is still value to be generated from this work.

Michele: Absolutely, and that's the other aspect I wanted to mention, which is sometimes licensing is an artwork that you have done for a client that has a limited license, which allows you to then sell that artwork to another client later. That also happens. I've discussed licensing with students, and it's something I learned during my time at art school. You know that you can generate passive income by reselling your existing artwork.

The question I always get from students, which is a good question, is ‘Cool, how do I do that?’ And I think one of the reasons we don't think about licensing so much as illustrators is because there isn't really an ecosystem to do that. Right now, if someone likes your work, they ask if it's available for licensing, and you say, ‘Yes, cool.’ But that's a lot of ifs. There's not really a place to put your work out there and say this is available for licensing. Unless you have a licensing portfolio, unless you specifically build that for yourself. I also believe this affects the way we negotiate our contracts for commissions.

I think we're ready to sign these work for hire contracts and give away our illustrations once we've created them, because we don't know what to do with them afterwards. Here's the illustration, I'm not going to make any more money off of it, so have at it. If we had more opportunities to continue making money from our artwork, perhaps illustrators would be more cautious about the rights we sign away when creating works for clients.

Julien: I think the brilliant aspect of Armadillo is creating an infrastructure that allows artists to do what they potentially could always be doing.

Michele: Yes, licensing works well if you have a large audience, fans who like your work, and know it's available for licensing, or if you're able to put all your effort into tabling at a licensing conference or, make an effort to really gear your portfolio to that. But that's not accessible to many artists.

Julien: And it's important that you mentioned the work-for-hire contracts because I think that, alongside the kind of private agreements that we see on websites like Shutterstock, erode copyright and intellectual property in the work of artists in the way that they just turn it into almost tangible goods, right? You sold it, you got paid for it, and you don't have any ownership over it.

Michele: If you'll let me get into the theory a little bit…

Julien: Please.

Michele: The way I see illustration as a commodity… I think people get confused because we think of ‘seizing the means of production’, and you think illustrators are the means of production, right? We don't need anything but a pencil and paper. We are the means of production. So, what do we have to seize?

I think an artwork works differently because I think of an illustration as the means of production itself. Because I think each work of art is almost like a little factory in and of itself. It's something that can continue to generate profits solely from the machinery, which is the artwork.

However, the production [of value] is not [from] creating the illustration; it comes from reproducing the illustration, and I think it's having control over how our work is reproduced, how it is distributed, and how we hold onto the rights to it. So, the way art becomes a commodity is through reproduction, which was initially mechanical and is now digital.

ON AI AND LICENSING PLATFORMS

Julien: You mentioned the whole project being kick started by Shutterstock changing their AI policy. Can you tell me more about your stance regarding Armadillo and AI training?

Michele: We have a big sign on the door right now that says, ‘no AI allowed.’ We don't have an anti-technology stance, so if the culture changes, if the industry changes. We can change with that. But right now, no AI, we are not interested in artists who use AI as part of their process, we're definitely not interested in artists who use AI as their entire process. And we want to be a place where clients can find work that they're confident is not AI. So we are going to try to keep it off of the website and do whatever we can to protect the artist on the website.

Julien: In the world of licensing platforms and in the relationship with AI companies I'm seeing two avenues. The Shutterstocks who went full on AI and generating images direct from the platform; and the other avenue is Getty Images, who's currently suing Stability AI for copyright infringement at multiple scales, which might make it look like an unlikely ally to illustrators. I'm wondering if you can say more about what kind of relationships illustrators, can expect with those companies and what's the role of a platform like Armadillo in this ecology?

Michele: From these company's point of view, they're all caught between a rock and a hard place because they all want to steal from artists, but they don't want anyone to steal from them¹. And I think this conversation keeps getting so confused because we act like companies that own images are the same as the artist who created the images. We act like all copyright is equal and it's not. There's a difference between a copyright holder who's the original creator of the work and a copyright holder who is a corporation that bought the rights of the work.

I understand Shutterstock's position, and I understand Getty Images position. I think neither of them are our allies, ultimately, because I think they both have the same goals and are just going about it in different ways. So, I think stock image websites are especially interesting because I've always seen AI as being a threat to them more than anyone else because what is AI good at? AI is good at recycling images that already exist in our culture. It's not really good at creating things that we haven't seen before.

As an artist, it doesn't interest me. Because as far as I'm concerned, AI doesn't compete with what I do, which is create original images.

Julien: What I find fascinating with Armadillo is, knowing how much in the early 2000 licensing platform platforms were the scariest thing ever for an illustrator, that it is clever to use that structure to do something completely grassroots, quite radical and very bottom-up.

Michele: I love that you said that because I don't know how many people remember that ICON, the big illustration conference that happens every two years in the US, was started largely in response to these stock image websites that were appearing, that everyone was so afraid that they would take away jobs from illustrators. I think the reason they didn't is the same reason AI won't, which is that offering preexisting images that were solutions to other problems is not the same as having a new problem that you need a new solution to. I think there's always going to be a need for new artwork.

So, I'm not afraid of the idea of stock image websites, but I do think the fear of them has allowed them to exploit us more. Distancing ourselves from the world of stock and clip art in general, I think there is a dangerous elitism to that, which allows creeping exploitation. And so, I want to see us take over the licensing space as well as the original commission space.

Julien: I think that really speaks to like your point earlier about not building into like low art, high art, all those things. Because I think the anxiety towards licensing platforms does come from this fear of the generic and too far from the idea of the individual artists who creates something unique every single time.

Michele: Yeah, and we love the original artists who create something unique that no one's ever seen before. But I also have a lot of love for the artists that build our clichés and art that's familiar as well as art that's original.

ON LABOUR AND ORGANIZING

Julien: I find the illustration world to be a place where it's sometimes hard to organize in terms of labor, to think together about like different forms of labor and like to organize around those possibilities. I'm curious to hear you about this issue and how for example, a project Armadillo connects with other ways that we can imagine different futures for what illustration could look like on the labor front?

Michele: Absolutely. I'm always thinking about how difficult it is to organize illustrators, and most of that is because we are a very atomized industry. We mostly work as individuals. We work in a lot of different industries. We don't often work in teams with other illustrators(the exceptions are things like animation and the entertainment industry).

So I do see Armadillo as an organizing method, not in the traditional sense of forming a union and negotiating with your boss, but I do think that there's overlap to coming together collectively and putting our art in one place and saying, okay, we've decided this is the price of admission. I think if we're going to negotiate with clients on a freelance individual basis, then we should be thinking about that collectively, even if it's not collective.

Julien: That reminds me of a Montreal worker co-op gathering freelance translators because for them, the co-op structure was a way for freelancers to come together and share the expenses of an accountant, a bookkeeper, a common website, all those things. I thought that was like such an inspiring way to think of how freelancers can organize in different ways.

Michele: I love that. And I think it's important to always keep this mindset that the value comes from the workers, it comes from the artists, it comes from the translators, the value comes from us. If we say we're going to build our own infrastructure, and if you want to work with us, you have to come over to our infrastructure, people will have no choice but to do that. If we can act collectively like that, they will have no choice but to do that because we hold all the power ultimately, and that, that's what it's about.

For me it's about recognizing that artists already have that power. We just don't have that organization to exercise it collectively.

Julien: Speaking of workers, who is behind the project? Who's involved in it? What are the roles, how do you guys organize the work?

Michele: I'm the founder, head organizer executive director, whatever you want to call me and we have an incredible team of volunteers. We are very grassroots, very shoestring budget, starting with nothing. Basically, what we have to offer is our labor.

So, we have a wonderful team of volunteers. Some of them are friends of mine that I've roped in. A lot of people are just strangers on the internet who believed in it and wanted to be involved. At this point, most of the team has been working together on this for two years now. We have three main teams: the Dev team, the UI/UX team, and the Marketing team.

It really means a lot to me to have that team of people who believe in the vision with me, because from the start, I knew this was an idea that needed to be community-built and wouldn't happen unless there was community interest in it. I had the belief that the community would come together and help me out with this crazy idea, and I have not been disappointed.

SUPPORTING ARMADILLO

Julien: That's amazing. What are the next steps for Armadillo and how can people interested in the project help or participate?

Michele: Right now, the big thing is our Kickstarter, which has been a long-time planning and setting up on its own. So, our main goal right now is to spread the word about the Kickstarter. We just want to raise as many funds as we can to give us the runway to build what we want to build. And if it all goes well, we're hoping shortly after that to launch a website where artists can sign up and start uploading artwork.

Basically, as soon as artists can start uploading artwork, the site will be functional because people can find it. We have a lot of big ideas of things that we would like to do, but the goal is always to be this place where not only artists can come together and, organize and sell their work, but also a place where we can educate about licensing and educating clients as well as artists and providing resources for this type of licensing negotiation for people who might not be familiar with it.

The reason I ended up building this website is because I had this great idea and I realized that if I didn't do it, nobody else would. But I think that's true of any workers in every industry. If we don't do it for ourselves, certainly no one is going to do it for us.

You can follow Armadillo’s adventure on Bluesky and Instagram.

That’s all for this time! If you enjoyed this interview and it made you think, please share it and engage in the comments. I’d love to know how different people think of this whole part of our visual culture led by licensing platforms. I’m hoping to return to a more regular publishing pace by the end of the year when the first draft of my thesis is done. Looking forward to it.

xoxo,

Julien

(Thumbnail image: David Teniers the Younger: Archduke Leopold Wilhelm in his Gallery)

1. Note that Shutterstock simultaneously changed its policy to train its own AI model on its contributors’ work while also refusing them to license any work made with in AI.